Tag Archives: Starke is an ex-rules lawyer

No Such Thing as a +2 Chair Leg of Wounding

How distinct are weapons like clubs from improvised weapons? I have a player (in Pathfinder/3.P) who insists that since clubs have no cost (are easily made), any improvised weapon that could use club damage is a club (i.e., is as easy to use as a club, so no attack penalty). I can’t help but think that the improvised weapon rules exist to simulate something realistic, like balance in hand, but I know basically nothing about weapons in real life.


It really depends on the club, or the quality of the improvised weapon in question. I mean, there isn’t going to be a huge quality difference between a broken off chair leg, and cheap wooden club. But, at the same time we are talking about Pathfinder, so, realism isn’t exactly the highest priority.

In theory, Pathfinder’s (and D&D’s) improvised weapon rules are built around the idea that you’re just grabbing whatever is at hand. It probably doesn’t have a proper grip, it may be flimsy, it could still be attached to something in the environment. Whatever it is, it’s certainly not a weapon, and the rules are generally meant to reflect that. If he wants to convert a broken chair leg into a proper club, that’s what the Craft (Broken Chair Legs) skill is for.

You have is a player trying to minmax. I’m not 100% certain about Pathfinder’s improvised weapon rules, but in 3.5 it was a flat, you do not get proficiency from any improvised weapon. So, you take a -4 penalty on all rolls to hit. (There’s actually a boatload of additional rules which you can apply if you think the player is trying to pull a fast one, such as actually tracking hardness and item HP to destroy their, “club,” from use.)

That said, Pathfinder is a little different, because there are feats (Catch Off-Guard and Improvised Weapon Mastery) which ignores the non-proficient penalty, and grant bonuses to improvised weapons, there’s a level 1 spell that allows the caster to convert an improvised weapon into its simple or martial counterpart (Refine Improvised Weapon in the Wizard/Sorc, and Cleric spellbooks, among others,) there’s a PRC (the Nature Warden) that gains the ability to do the same as an Extraordinary Ability (meaning, it’s non-magical for them.) And, there’s an entire Rogue archetype that focuses on using improvised weapons (in the Melee Tactics Toolbox.) There’s probably a ton of other specific rule interactions with improvised weapons in Pathfinder I’m unaware of.

What you have is a player who is trying to circumvent the rules to munchkin their character. If they want their character to use improvised weapons on a regular basis, without taking a penalty on every attack roll, there are multiple, explicit, paths to achieving that, and I don’t know exactly what your player’s end goal is, but this is a case where they’re asking for a free feat. It’s okay to say, “no,” no matter how concrete their logic seems. If they want want to use Improvised Weapons, Catch Off-Guard exists for a reason and has no prerequisites.


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